From sweeks at sweeks.com Mon Mar 1 19:23:16 2010 From: sweeks at sweeks.com (Stephen Weeks) Date: Mon Mar 1 19:24:09 2010 Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is back online In-Reply-To: References: <466709531002280937xd33fb14j253321f41aaa11ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466709531003011923x871299fiae703cbbe188aa89@mail.gmail.com> > > * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one > site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, > code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. > This one isn't so bad. We can make XXX.mlton.org aliases. > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > change the mail handling back to the VPS. I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short > term, and then do a single switch of everything. > All right. I switch the MX record back to mlton.org. It might take up to a week for some things to catch up. I await further discussion and a consensus from the group, at which point I will update the DNS as appropriate. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mlton.org/pipermail/mlton/attachments/20100301/dfbb78fd/attachment.htm From sweeks at sweeks.com Mon Mar 1 20:10:42 2010 From: sweeks at sweeks.com (Stephen Weeks) Date: Mon Mar 1 20:11:36 2010 Subject: [MLton] test Message-ID: <466709531003012010p5040f5dx8ef9a8056c9ee8b1@mail.gmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mlton.org/pipermail/mlton/attachments/20100301/ae43225b/attachment.html From sweeks at sweeks.com Mon Mar 1 20:14:11 2010 From: sweeks at sweeks.com (Stephen Weeks) Date: Mon Mar 1 20:14:44 2010 Subject: [MLton] test Message-ID: <604682011003012014h73a71ae2hab64cde841c65f3f@mail.gmail.com> From matthew.fluet at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 10:07:20 2010 From: matthew.fluet at gmail.com (Matthew Fluet) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:05:18 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org Message-ID: As some may have noticed or inferred, there was an issue with mlton.org (website, mailing lists, SVN, etc.) over the weekend. The long and short of it is that there was some kind of disk problem with the mlton.org hosting service, but they were able to restore the virtual private server (VPS) without any data loss and all services appear to be functioning normally. Nonetheless, it provided the opportunity to consider and to experiment with alternative hosting solutions. Stephen was able to put together a Google Groups for mlton.org that could host mlton@mlton.org and mlton-user@mlton.org and also a Google Sites for mlton.org that could host www.mlton.org, and for a short time over the weekend had DNS configured to point there. Below is the thread of discussion about moving the mlton.org services to an alternative hosting solution. I think that Stephen's argument is correct: administering a VPS is a significant overhead, and it holds things back because no one has the time to do the admin right. (And, even if someone had the time to do the admin at the present time, they may not in the future.) The big advantage of hosting under Google (or Sourceforge, or ...) is that the admin is amortized over all hosted projects, to the point where individual project developers need not concern themselves with the admin. Switching to a DVCS was mentioned on the mailing list a few months ago; its something to consider again, since a major drawback to switching was the up-front admin of setting up a different VCS. Thoughts? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:17:53 -0500 Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is OK The hosting company is bringing the server back online right now. No data loss. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:37:29 -0500 Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is back online I've changed the DNS settings for mlton.org, www.mlton.org, and svn.mlton.org to point back at the VPS, 69.55.226.86. If your DNS has got the stale IP, you can check the web site at http://69.55.226.86/ It looks fine to me. I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin right). I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. But that obviously takes some work. The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading to a more modern version control system. I'm a big fan of hg, having used it for a couple of years now. Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution seems better. The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or change the mail handling back to the VPS. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Henry Cejtin Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 15:12:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and repository are worth doing at various local machines just for diversifying the risk). I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:51:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online One advantage is that all repositories are created equal -- there's nothing special about the central repository, other than the convention that that's where all patches end up eventually. Using this fact, one can set up arbitrary workflows and easily work outside the central repository. E.g. when mlton.org was down for a few days, people could still commit and share patches with each other. Also, it's trivial to install and maintain repositories. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Henry Cejtin wrote: > Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely > agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the > generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and > repository are worth doing at various local machines just for > diversifying the risk). > I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good > things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Matthew Fluet Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Stephen Weeks wrote: > I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it > might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I > set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, > better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old > messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). It looks like importing mailing list archives is an oft-requested, but unsupported feature of GoogleGroups. Exporting would be another issue (if one wanted to take the Google Group archive somewhere else), though could probably be done with sufficient web-scraping (messages have a "Show Original" link, so one could accumulate all the raw text). > In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think > wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin > right). Agreed. > I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be > worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. > But that obviously takes some work. > The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the > SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a > reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading > to a more modern version control system. One option is to go with Google Code's project hosting. Some advantages: * SVN or Mercurial for project code * web interface (google custom, not ViewCVS) * Project wiki with a subset of MoinMoin markup (would make copying existing wiki relatively easy) * Integrated issue tracker Some disadvantages: * Possible code license issue; Google Code requires choosing one of a small number of open source licenses, including MIT License and New BSD License * Project membership iff code access and wiki access; i.e., no fine-grain permissions. [Probably not a major issue; few wiki edits from non developers.] * Project wiki loses some of our useful MoinMoin extensions (links to SVN revisions/files, (good) SML code formatting, SML code pulled from SVN, ...) * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. I suspect that the similar sets of pros/cons would arise from any hosting service. SourceForge, for which MLton still has a project presence, would be another logical choice. Since we left, they do support a variety of features: * CVS/SVN/Git/Mercurial/Bazzar * MediaWiki * Mailman mailing lists (Did we import mail into the SourceForge mailing list?) * VHOST > I'm a big fan of hg, having used > it for a couple of years now. I've been using Git a little bit, enough to see some of the advantages of a DVCS, but not enough to argue it over other systems. > Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that > moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution > seems better. Agreed. > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > change the mail handling back to the VPS. I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short term, and then do a single switch of everything. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one > site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, > code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. This one isn't so bad. We can make XXX.mlton.org aliases. > > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > > change the mail handling back to the VPS. > > I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short > term, and then do a single switch of everything. All right. I switch the MX record back to mlton.org. It might take up to a week for some things to catch up. I await further discussion and a consensus from the group, at which point I will update the DNS as appropriate. From matthew.fluet at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 09:26:55 2010 From: matthew.fluet at gmail.com (Matthew Fluet) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:15:00 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org Message-ID: As some may have noticed or inferred, there was an issue with mlton.org (website, mailing lists, SVN, etc.) over the weekend. The long and short of it is that there was some kind of disk problem with the mlton.org hosting service, but they were able to restore the virtual private server (VPS) without any data loss and all services appear to be functioning normally. Nonetheless, it provided the opportunity to consider and to experiment with alternative hosting solutions. Stephen was able to put together a Google Groups for mlton.org that could host mlton@mlton.org and mlton-user@mlton.org and also a Google Sites for mlton.org that could host www.mlton.org, and for a short time over the weekend had DNS configured to point there. Below is the thread of discussion about moving the mlton.org services to an alternative hosting solution. I think that Stephen's argument is correct: administering a VPS is a significant overhead, and it holds things back because no one has the time to do the admin right. (And, even if someone had the time to do the admin at the present time, they may not in the future.) The big advantage of hosting under Google (or Sourceforge, or ...) is that the admin is amortized over all hosted projects, to the point where individual project developers need not concern themselves with the admin. Switching to a DVCS was mentioned on the mailing list a few months ago; its something to consider again, since a major drawback to switching was the up-front admin of setting up a different VCS. Thoughts? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:17:53 -0500 Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is OK The hosting company is bringing the server back online right now. No data loss. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:37:29 -0500 Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is back online I've changed the DNS settings for mlton.org, www.mlton.org, and svn.mlton.org to point back at the VPS, 69.55.226.86. If your DNS has got the stale IP, you can check the web site at http://69.55.226.86/ It looks fine to me. I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin right). I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. But that obviously takes some work. The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading to a more modern version control system. I'm a big fan of hg, having used it for a couple of years now. Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution seems better. The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or change the mail handling back to the VPS. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Henry Cejtin Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 15:12:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and repository are worth doing at various local machines just for diversifying the risk). I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:51:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online One advantage is that all repositories are created equal -- there's nothing special about the central repository, other than the convention that that's where all patches end up eventually. Using this fact, one can set up arbitrary workflows and easily work outside the central repository. E.g. when mlton.org was down for a few days, people could still commit and share patches with each other. Also, it's trivial to install and maintain repositories. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Henry Cejtin wrote: > Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely > agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the > generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and > repository are worth doing at various local machines just for > diversifying the risk). > I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good > things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Matthew Fluet Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Stephen Weeks wrote: > I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it > might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I > set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, > better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old > messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). It looks like importing mailing list archives is an oft-requested, but unsupported feature of GoogleGroups. Exporting would be another issue (if one wanted to take the Google Group archive somewhere else), though could probably be done with sufficient web-scraping (messages have a "Show Original" link, so one could accumulate all the raw text). > In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think > wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin > right). Agreed. > I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be > worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. > But that obviously takes some work. > The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the > SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a > reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading > to a more modern version control system. One option is to go with Google Code's project hosting. Some advantages: * SVN or Mercurial for project code * web interface (google custom, not ViewCVS) * Project wiki with a subset of MoinMoin markup (would make copying existing wiki relatively easy) * Integrated issue tracker Some disadvantages: * Possible code license issue; Google Code requires choosing one of a small number of open source licenses, including MIT License and New BSD License * Project membership iff code access and wiki access; i.e., no fine-grain permissions. [Probably not a major issue; few wiki edits from non developers.] * Project wiki loses some of our useful MoinMoin extensions (links to SVN revisions/files, (good) SML code formatting, SML code pulled from SVN, ...) * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. I suspect that the similar sets of pros/cons would arise from any hosting service. SourceForge, for which MLton still has a project presence, would be another logical choice. Since we left, they do support a variety of features: * CVS/SVN/Git/Mercurial/Bazzar * MediaWiki * Mailman mailing lists (Did we import mail into the SourceForge mailing list?) * VHOST > I'm a big fan of hg, having used > it for a couple of years now. I've been using Git a little bit, enough to see some of the advantages of a DVCS, but not enough to argue it over other systems. > Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that > moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution > seems better. Agreed. > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > change the mail handling back to the VPS. I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short term, and then do a single switch of everything. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Weeks Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one > site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, > code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. This one isn't so bad. We can make XXX.mlton.org aliases. > > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > > change the mail handling back to the VPS. > > I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short > term, and then do a single switch of everything. All right. I switch the MX record back to mlton.org. It might take up to a week for some things to catch up. I await further discussion and a consensus from the group, at which point I will update the DNS as appropriate. From suresh at cs.purdue.edu Tue Mar 2 11:30:35 2010 From: suresh at cs.purdue.edu (Suresh Jagannathan) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:31:11 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8D675B.1050601@cs.purdue.edu> I agree with Stephen's argument as well, and going to Google Groups or Sourceforge would be fine with me. The arguments certainly seem compelling. As Henry points out, backups on local sites to increase fault tolerance would be a reasonable thing to do, too. - Suresh On 3/2/10 6:07 PM, Matthew Fluet wrote: > As some may have noticed or inferred, there was an issue with > mlton.org (website, mailing lists, SVN, etc.) over the weekend. The > long and short of it is that there was some kind of disk problem with > the mlton.org hosting service, but they were able to restore the > virtual private server (VPS) without any data loss and all services > appear to be functioning normally. > > Nonetheless, it provided the opportunity to consider and to experiment > with alternative hosting solutions. Stephen was able to put together > a Google Groups for mlton.org that could host mlton@mlton.org and > mlton-user@mlton.org and also a Google Sites for mlton.org that could > host www.mlton.org, and for a short time over the weekend had DNS > configured to point there. Below is the thread of discussion about > moving the mlton.org services to an alternative hosting solution. > > I think that Stephen's argument is correct: administering a VPS is a > significant overhead, and it holds things back because no one has the > time to do the admin right. (And, even if someone had the time to do > the admin at the present time, they may not in the future.) The big > advantage of hosting under Google (or Sourceforge, or ...) is that the > admin is amortized over all hosted projects, to the point where > individual project developers need not concern themselves with the > admin. Switching to a DVCS was mentioned on the mailing list a few > months ago; its something to consider again, since a major drawback to > switching was the up-front admin of setting up a different VCS. > > Thoughts? > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:17:53 -0500 > Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is OK > > The hosting company is bringing the server back online right now. No data > loss. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:37:29 -0500 > Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > I've changed the DNS settings for mlton.org, www.mlton.org, and > svn.mlton.org to point back at the VPS, 69.55.226.86. > > If your DNS has got the stale IP, you can check the web site at > > http://69.55.226.86/ > > It looks fine to me. > > I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it > might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I > set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, > better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old > messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). > > In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think > wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin > right). I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be > worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. > But that obviously takes some work. > > The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the > SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a > reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading > to a more modern version control system. I'm a big fan of hg, having used > it for a couple of years now. > > Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that > moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution > seems better. > > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > change the mail handling back to the VPS. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Henry Cejtin > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 15:12:09 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely > agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the > generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and > repository are worth doing at various local machines just for > diversifying the risk). > > I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good > things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:51:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > One advantage is that all repositories are created equal -- there's nothing > special about the central repository, other than the convention that that's > where all patches end up eventually. Using this fact, one can set up > arbitrary workflows and easily work outside the central repository. E.g. > when mlton.org was down for a few days, people could still commit and share > patches with each other. > > Also, it's trivial to install and maintain repositories. > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Henry Cejtinwrote: > >> Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely >> agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the >> generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and >> repository are worth doing at various local machines just for >> diversifying the risk). >> > >> I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good >> things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? >> > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Matthew Fluet > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:24:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Stephen Weeks wrote: > >> I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it >> might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I >> set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, >> better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old >> messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). >> > It looks like importing mailing list archives is an oft-requested, but > unsupported feature of GoogleGroups. Exporting would be another issue > (if one wanted to take the Google Group archive somewhere else), > though could probably be done with sufficient web-scraping (messages > have a "Show Original" link, so one could accumulate all the raw > text). > > >> In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think >> wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin >> right). >> > Agreed. > > >> I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be >> worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. >> But that obviously takes some work. >> > >> The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the >> SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a >> reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading >> to a more modern version control system. >> > One option is to go with Google Code's project hosting. > > Some advantages: > * SVN or Mercurial for project code > * web interface (google custom, not ViewCVS) > * Project wiki with a subset of MoinMoin markup (would make copying > existing wiki relatively easy) > * Integrated issue tracker > > Some disadvantages: > * Possible code license issue; Google Code requires choosing one of a > small number of open source licenses, including MIT License and New > BSD License > * Project membership iff code access and wiki access; i.e., no > fine-grain permissions. [Probably not a major issue; few wiki edits > from non developers.] > * Project wiki loses some of our useful MoinMoin extensions (links to > SVN revisions/files, (good) SML code formatting, SML code pulled from > SVN, ...) > * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one > site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, > code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. > > I suspect that the similar sets of pros/cons would arise from any > hosting service. SourceForge, for which MLton still has a project > presence, would be another logical choice. Since we left, they do > support a variety of features: > * CVS/SVN/Git/Mercurial/Bazzar > * MediaWiki > * Mailman mailing lists (Did we import mail into the SourceForge mailing list?) > * VHOST > > >> I'm a big fan of hg, having used >> it for a couple of years now. >> > I've been using Git a little bit, enough to see some of the advantages > of a DVCS, but not enough to argue it over other systems. > > >> Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that >> moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution >> seems better. >> > Agreed. > > >> The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the >> mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or >> change the mail handling back to the VPS. >> > I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short > term, and then do a single switch of everything. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > >> * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one >> site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, >> code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. >> > > This one isn't so bad. We can make XXX.mlton.org aliases. > > >>> The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the >>> mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or >>> change the mail handling back to the VPS. >>> >> I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short >> term, and then do a single switch of everything. >> > All right. I switch the MX record back to mlton.org. It might take up to a > week for some things to catch up. I await further discussion and a > consensus from the group, at which point I will update the DNS as > appropriate. > > _______________________________________________ > MLton mailing list > MLton@mlton.org > http://mlton.org/mailman/listinfo/mlton > From adam at spicenitz.org Tue Mar 2 12:49:36 2010 From: adam at spicenitz.org (Adam Goode) Date: Tue Mar 2 12:49:45 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> Moving to Google Code sounds like a great idea. I can tell you that Fedora's interpretation of MLton's license is "MIT", so that is compatible with code hosting. I also think it would be a great chance to migrate to Mercurial. Adam On 03/02/2010 01:07 PM, Matthew Fluet wrote: > As some may have noticed or inferred, there was an issue with > mlton.org (website, mailing lists, SVN, etc.) over the weekend. The > long and short of it is that there was some kind of disk problem with > the mlton.org hosting service, but they were able to restore the > virtual private server (VPS) without any data loss and all services > appear to be functioning normally. > > Nonetheless, it provided the opportunity to consider and to experiment > with alternative hosting solutions. Stephen was able to put together > a Google Groups for mlton.org that could host mlton@mlton.org and > mlton-user@mlton.org and also a Google Sites for mlton.org that could > host www.mlton.org, and for a short time over the weekend had DNS > configured to point there. Below is the thread of discussion about > moving the mlton.org services to an alternative hosting solution. > > I think that Stephen's argument is correct: administering a VPS is a > significant overhead, and it holds things back because no one has the > time to do the admin right. (And, even if someone had the time to do > the admin at the present time, they may not in the future.) The big > advantage of hosting under Google (or Sourceforge, or ...) is that the > admin is amortized over all hosted projects, to the point where > individual project developers need not concern themselves with the > admin. Switching to a DVCS was mentioned on the mailing list a few > months ago; its something to consider again, since a major drawback to > switching was the up-front admin of setting up a different VCS. > > Thoughts? > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:17:53 -0500 > Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is OK > > The hosting company is bringing the server back online right now. No data > loss. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:37:29 -0500 > Subject: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > I've changed the DNS settings for mlton.org, www.mlton.org, and > svn.mlton.org to point back at the VPS, 69.55.226.86. > > If your DNS has got the stale IP, you can check the web site at > > http://69.55.226.86/ > > It looks fine to me. > > I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it > might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I > set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, > better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old > messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). > > In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think > wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin > right). I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be > worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. > But that obviously takes some work. > > The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the > SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a > reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading > to a more modern version control system. I'm a big fan of hg, having used > it for a couple of years now. > > Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that > moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution > seems better. > > The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the > mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or > change the mail handling back to the VPS. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Henry Cejtin > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 15:12:09 -0800 (PST) > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely > agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the > generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and > repository are worth doing at various local machines just for > diversifying the risk). > > I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good > things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:51:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > One advantage is that all repositories are created equal -- there's nothing > special about the central repository, other than the convention that that's > where all patches end up eventually. Using this fact, one can set up > arbitrary workflows and easily work outside the central repository. E.g. > when mlton.org was down for a few days, people could still commit and share > patches with each other. > > Also, it's trivial to install and maintain repositories. > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Henry Cejtin wrote: >> Excellent news about the MLton data still being around. I completely >> agree that lots of the stuff (like google groups) makes sense in the >> generic cloud (although I think that backups of the mail, wiki and >> repository are worth doing at various local machines just for >> diversifying the risk). > >> I have never used mercurial (A.K.A. hg?) but I have certainly heard good >> things about it. What are the advantages over SVN? > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Matthew Fluet > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:24:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Stephen Weeks wrote: >> I haven't pointed the mail server back to the VPS yet, because I think it >> might be an opportune time to switch over to the google groups stuff that I >> set up. It has a lot of advantages (easier management, better reliability, >> better archiving) and no real disadvantages that I can see (other than old >> messages aren't in the same archive, but maybe that could even be fixed). > > It looks like importing mailing list archives is an oft-requested, but > unsupported feature of GoogleGroups. Exporting would be another issue > (if one wanted to take the Google Group archive somewhere else), > though could probably be done with sufficient web-scraping (messages > have a "Show Original" link, so one could accumulate all the raw > text). > >> In general, I'd like to get out of administering my own VPS, which I think >> wastes time and holds things back (because no one has time to do the admin >> right). > > Agreed. > >> I've already done it for nameserver and mail. I think it could be >> worth it in the long run to switch the MLton wiki over to google sites too. >> But that obviously takes some work. > >> The only other service that I can think of that mlton.org provides is the >> SVN repo (and web interface). It would be cool if we could move that to a >> reasonable turn-key hosted solution too. We might also consider upgrading >> to a more modern version control system. > > One option is to go with Google Code's project hosting. > > Some advantages: > * SVN or Mercurial for project code > * web interface (google custom, not ViewCVS) > * Project wiki with a subset of MoinMoin markup (would make copying > existing wiki relatively easy) > * Integrated issue tracker > > Some disadvantages: > * Possible code license issue; Google Code requires choosing one of a > small number of open source licenses, including MIT License and New > BSD License > * Project membership iff code access and wiki access; i.e., no > fine-grain permissions. [Probably not a major issue; few wiki edits > from non developers.] > * Project wiki loses some of our useful MoinMoin extensions (links to > SVN revisions/files, (good) SML code formatting, SML code pulled from > SVN, ...) > * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one > site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, > code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. > > I suspect that the similar sets of pros/cons would arise from any > hosting service. SourceForge, for which MLton still has a project > presence, would be another logical choice. Since we left, they do > support a variety of features: > * CVS/SVN/Git/Mercurial/Bazzar > * MediaWiki > * Mailman mailing lists (Did we import mail into the SourceForge mailing list?) > * VHOST > >> I'm a big fan of hg, having used >> it for a couple of years now. > > I've been using Git a little bit, enough to see some of the advantages > of a DVCS, but not enough to argue it over other systems. > >> Anyways, I'll defer to the wishes of the group, but my feeling is that >> moving away from the VPS and toward a more group-managed and hosted solution >> seems better. > > Agreed. > >> The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the >> mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or >> change the mail handling back to the VPS. > > I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short > term, and then do a single switch of everything. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Weeks > Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [MLton] mlton.org is back online > >> * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one >> site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, >> code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. > > > This one isn't so bad. We can make XXX.mlton.org aliases. > >>> The only immediate decision that needs to be made is whether to migrate the >>> mail to google groups (basically, invite all the old members to join), or >>> change the mail handling back to the VPS. >> >> I'd vote to change the mail handling back to the VPS for the short >> term, and then do a single switch of everything. > > All right. I switch the MX record back to mlton.org. It might take up to a > week for some things to catch up. I await further discussion and a > consensus from the group, at which point I will update the DNS as > appropriate. > > _______________________________________________ > MLton mailing list > MLton@mlton.org > http://mlton.org/mailman/listinfo/mlton -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 261 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mlton.org/pipermail/mlton/attachments/20100302/e1eca37a/signature.pgp From wesley at terpstra.ca Wed Mar 3 03:25:49 2010 From: wesley at terpstra.ca (Wesley W. Terpstra) Date: Wed Mar 3 03:26:27 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org In-Reply-To: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> References: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> Message-ID: <162de7481003030325p4850f742kaabf4c4ec1c2453f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Adam Goode wrote: >> Some advantages: >> * SVN or Mercurial for project code >> ?* web interface (google custom, not ViewCVS) >> * Project wiki with a subset of MoinMoin markup (would make copying >> existing wiki relatively easy) >> * Integrated issue tracker I don't find the advantages list here to be very compelling. The only real plus is the issue tracker. We already have something better than or equal to the other advantages. AFAICS, the main point is just the relief of administrative burden. >> Some disadvantages: >> * Possible code license issue; Google Code requires choosing one of a >> small number of open source licenses, including MIT License and New >> BSD License >> * Project membership iff code access and wiki access; i.e., no >> fine-grain permissions. ?[Probably not a major issue; few wiki edits >> from non developers.] >> * Project wiki loses some of our useful MoinMoin extensions (links to >> SVN revisions/files, (good) SML code formatting, SML code pulled from >> SVN, ...) >> * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one >> site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, >> code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. Aside from the license issue, all these other disadvantages could be lumped under 'loss of control'. By going with a large-scale project website it's a 'take it or leave it' proposition. We only get the features they offer. I imagine that as time moves on, other things will be added to this list. So I think the main point is: administrative burden vs. ability to customize the site. Which part of the administration is the most work? Keeping the system up-to-date or dealing with issues or something else? If the up-to-dateness is a problem, moving to a shared server (non VPS) relieves that issue (I offered this before). The number of issues we get with a googlecode solution may be reduced, but the remaining issues might be largely unsolvable. All in all, though: rather than invest time in moving mlton.org, how's about a new release? :D From matthew.fluet at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 06:54:16 2010 From: matthew.fluet at gmail.com (Matthew Fluet) Date: Thu Mar 4 06:54:50 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org In-Reply-To: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> References: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Adam Goode wrote: > Moving to Google Code sounds like a great idea. I can tell you that > Fedora's interpretation of MLton's license is "MIT", so that is > compatible with code hosting. Hmm. The copyright/license headers in code files states: # MLton is released under a BSD-style license. # See the file MLton-LICENSE for details. But, IANAL. (And, perhaps, the MIT license is considered a "BSD-style license".) From adam at spicenitz.org Thu Mar 4 07:13:23 2010 From: adam at spicenitz.org (Adam Goode) Date: Thu Mar 4 07:13:34 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org In-Reply-To: References: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> Message-ID: <4B8FCE13.9050301@spicenitz.org> On 03/04/2010 09:54 AM, Matthew Fluet wrote: > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Adam Goode wrote: >> Moving to Google Code sounds like a great idea. I can tell you that >> Fedora's interpretation of MLton's license is "MIT", so that is >> compatible with code hosting. > > Hmm. The copyright/license headers in code files states: > > # MLton is released under a BSD-style license. > # See the file MLton-LICENSE for details. > > But, IANAL. (And, perhaps, the MIT license is considered a "BSD-style > license".) By their analysis, it's the "MLton variant" of the MIT license. It's the text of the license that matters (structural equivalence instead of nominal?). http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing/MIT#MLton_variant Adam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 261 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mlton.org/pipermail/mlton/attachments/20100304/245450be/signature.pgp From matthew.fluet at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 07:32:57 2010 From: matthew.fluet at gmail.com (Matthew Fluet) Date: Thu Mar 4 07:33:32 2010 Subject: [MLton] past and future of mlton.org In-Reply-To: <162de7481003030325p4850f742kaabf4c4ec1c2453f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B8D79E0.3070300@spicenitz.org> <162de7481003030325p4850f742kaabf4c4ec1c2453f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Wesley W. Terpstra wrote: > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Adam Goode wrote: >>> Some advantages: >>> * SVN or Mercurial for project code >>> ?* web interface (google custom, not ViewCVS) >>> * Project wiki with a subset of MoinMoin markup (would make copying >>> existing wiki relatively easy) >>> * Integrated issue tracker > > I don't find the advantages list here to be very compelling. The only > real plus is the issue tracker. We already have something better than > or equal to the other advantages. AFAICS, the main point is just the > relief of administrative burden. This was meant to be some advantages of Google (Code/Groups/Sites/...) in particular, not general advantages of moving away from a self-hosted mlton.org. The advantage of moving away is the relief of admin overhead. >>> Some disadvantages: >>> * Possible code license issue; Google Code requires choosing one of a >>> small number of open source licenses, including MIT License and New >>> BSD License >>> * Project membership iff code access and wiki access; i.e., no >>> fine-grain permissions. ?[Probably not a major issue; few wiki edits >>> from non developers.] >>> * Project wiki loses some of our useful MoinMoin extensions (links to >>> SVN revisions/files, (good) SML code formatting, SML code pulled from >>> SVN, ...) >>> * Dispersal of URLs: mlton.org for mailing lists, mlton.org for one >>> site, mlton.googlecode.com/ for source repository, >>> code.google.com/p/mlton for project wiki, issue tracker, etc. > > Aside from the license issue, all these other disadvantages could be > lumped under 'loss of control'. By going with a large-scale project > website it's a 'take it or leave it' proposition. We only get the > features they offer. I imagine that as time moves on, other things > will be added to this list. Agreed that moving to a project-hosting site means only having the features they offer, and with it a limited loss of control. However, I disagree with the conclusion that the list is likely to grow. Indeed, I noted that SourceForge.net added a lot of features over the last few years. Also, a project-hosting site is likely to support (and add support for) features that are relevant to development projects. > So I think the main point is: administrative burden vs. ability to > customize the site. Agreed; but, remember, "the site" is more than just the www presence. > Which part of the administration is the most work? Keeping the system > up-to-date or dealing with issues or something else? I think all of these are parts of the administration overhead. Keeping the system up-to-date is not just a matter of updating with distribution-provided security patches. As you noted once before, mlton.org is running Debian 3.1, with no more security or feature updates. Updating to something newer almost certainly means that mailman, apache, svn, MoinMoin, ... will also be updated. Who knows how smoothly any of those upgrades would be. Again, the advantage of a project-hosting site is that (presumably) any service upgrades will be thoroughly tested, since they will impact many projects simultaneously. > If the > up-to-dateness is a problem, moving to a shared server (non VPS) > relieves that issue (I offered this before). I don't see how a shared server is better than a project-hosting site. Indeed, in many situations it could be worse. On a shared server, we would only have the features installed (and supported) by the server, which may or may not be geared towards a development project. Being hosted as a pro bono service probably means being a low-priority for support, a prime candidate for budget cuts, etc. [Yes, a project-hosting service could disappear at any time, but it seems less likely.] > The number of issues we > get with a googlecode solution may be reduced, but the remaining > issues might be largely unsolvable. What do you see as an unsolvable issue? > All in all, though: rather than invest time in moving mlton.org, how's > about a new release? :D Making (slow) progress.